Count of positions

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sagisag
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Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 11:03 pm

Count of positions

Post by sagisag »

Image
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MikeAtBookup
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:02 pm

Re: Count of positions

Post by MikeAtBookup »

It's a common misconception but that number is displaying the total variations (not positions) beyond that move.

Every variation is '1' variation so putting that number one there is redundant and distracting I'd think.
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Mike Leahy
:geek: Head Geek at bookup.com
sagisag
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 11:03 pm

Re: Count of positions

Post by sagisag »

MikeAtBookup wrote:It's a common misconception but that number is displaying the total variations (not positions) beyond that move.

Every variation is '1' variation so putting that number one there is redundant and distracting I'd think.
After 1.b3 there still a move 1...c5

Image


After 1.g3 there are no other moves.

Image


This is why the 1.b3 should have a "1" and 1.g3 is simply blank.

Image
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MikeAtBookup
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Re: Count of positions

Post by MikeAtBookup »

Again, that backsolved number is the number of variations, not the number positions. In your example, both cases have one variation. Every move is one variation whether it's the last move in the variation or there are dozens more moves. So every candidate move would have your '1' rather than leaving it blank.

In the distant past prior to Bookup 2000, the program did show the number of positions. You'd see a couple candidate moves with the number 100, say. That could mean the next 50 move pairs of a single game or it could mean dozens of variations. The users voted that it was better to know the shape of the tree, how wide it became in the future with variations.
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Mike Leahy
:geek: Head Geek at bookup.com
sagisag
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 11:03 pm

Re: Count of positions

Post by sagisag »

MikeAtBookup wrote:Again, that backsolved number is the number of variations, not the number positions. In your example, both cases have one variation. Every move is one variation whether it's the last move in the variation or there are dozens more moves. So every candidate move would have your '1' rather than leaving it blank.

In the distant past prior to Bookup 2000, the program did show the number of positions. You'd see a couple candidate moves with the number 100, say. That could mean the next 50 move pairs of a single game or it could mean dozens of variations. The users voted that it was better to know the shape of the tree, how wide it became in the future with variations.
Let's call it variation.

Code: Select all

         start
       /       \
     b3        g3
    /
  c5
After b3 there is still 1 variation, and this variation starts at move c5.

After g3 there is no variation, that is why it is blank.
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MikeAtBookup
Posts: 187
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Re: Count of positions

Post by MikeAtBookup »

sagisag wrote:
MikeAtBookup wrote:Again, that backsolved number is the number of variations, not the number positions. In your example, both cases have one variation. Every move is one variation whether it's the last move in the variation or there are dozens more moves. So every candidate move would have your '1' rather than leaving it blank.

In the distant past prior to Bookup 2000, the program did show the number of positions. You'd see a couple candidate moves with the number 100, say. That could mean the next 50 move pairs of a single game or it could mean dozens of variations. The users voted that it was better to know the shape of the tree, how wide it became in the future with variations.
Let's call it variation.

Code: Select all

         start
       /       \
     b3        g3
    /
  c5
After b3 there is still 1 variation, and this variation starts at move c5.

After g3 there is no variation, that is why it is blank.
Think of it more this way. How many variations are there in your example start position? There are two. One of the variations starts with g3. The other variation starts with b3. The g3 variation has one move in it. The b3 variation has two moves in it.

Any move that reaches your "start" position will show 2 variations.
-------------------
Mike Leahy
:geek: Head Geek at bookup.com
sagisag
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 11:03 pm

Re: Count of positions

Post by sagisag »

MikeAtBookup wrote:
sagisag wrote:
MikeAtBookup wrote:Again, that backsolved number is the number of variations, not the number positions. In your example, both cases have one variation. Every move is one variation whether it's the last move in the variation or there are dozens more moves. So every candidate move would have your '1' rather than leaving it blank.

In the distant past prior to Bookup 2000, the program did show the number of positions. You'd see a couple candidate moves with the number 100, say. That could mean the next 50 move pairs of a single game or it could mean dozens of variations. The users voted that it was better to know the shape of the tree, how wide it became in the future with variations.
Let's call it variation.

Code: Select all

         start
       /       \
     b3        g3
    /
  c5
After b3 there is still 1 variation, and this variation starts at move c5.

After g3 there is no variation, that is why it is blank.
Think of it more this way. How many variations are there in your example start position? There are two.
Correct from start position there are two.
One of the variations starts with g3. The other variation starts with b3.
Correct.
The g3 variation has one move in it.
Right.
The b3 variation has two moves in it.
Right.
Any move that reaches your "start" position will show 2 variations.
Right.


But here is what I am trying to convey, a new example. After move b3 there are 2 variations.
img1
Image


After I move b3 on the board I get this.
img2
Image

This proves that the 2 variations in img1 refers to the line starting from e5 and Nc6.

My understanding on how to read img1 is that, the 2 variations refers to the variations behind or after the move b3.

Now lets read img2.
There are no number of variations it is just blank because there are no moves behind e5 and Nc6.

After moving e5.
img3
Image

That is my basic understanding on reading the window before and after making a move.

Now If I add a single move Bb2 after e5 (that is b3 e5 Bb2) the new img after b3 looks like this with my comments.
img4
Image

After moving e5.
img5
Image

That is my point, the comments in img4.
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MikeAtBookup
Posts: 187
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Re: Count of positions

Post by MikeAtBookup »

Your images are really clear and I do think I understand exactly what you mean.

Still, the program only backsolves the number of variations, not the number of remaining moves/positions in any variation. So displaying the number '1' next to a candidate is always redundant.

You seem to want to have the program display the number of moves/positions beyond each candidate. The program does not do that.
-------------------
Mike Leahy
:geek: Head Geek at bookup.com
sagisag
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun May 07, 2017 11:03 pm

Re: Count of positions

Post by sagisag »

MikeAtBookup wrote:Your images are really clear and I do think I understand exactly what you mean.

Still, the program only backsolves the number of variations, not the number of remaining moves/positions in any variation. So displaying the number '1' next to a candidate is always redundant.
It is not redundant, when I see 1 meaning there is still 1 variation behind the move. If I see nothing, then there is no more variation or move behind the move. It is that simple.
MikeAtBookup wrote:You seem to want to have the program display the number of moves/positions beyond each candidate. The program does not do that.
I want the program to display the number of variations after a given move so that the program is consistent. I have already shown the images.
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MikeAtBookup
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 2:02 pm

Re: Count of positions

Post by MikeAtBookup »

You have already shown the images. I have already seen the images.

The number of variations has nothing to do with how many moves remain in any variation. The variation can have zero remaining moves (beyond the candidate move being displayed) or it may have 50 moves beyond that candidate move but unless those future moves branch into two or more variations then it is a single variation. Labelling it as a single variation is redundant because just showing a candidate move means it is a variation.
-------------------
Mike Leahy
:geek: Head Geek at bookup.com
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